tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post4133448049123475069..comments2024-03-13T09:47:40.487+00:00Comments on Cockpit Conversation: Minimum Rest Period in Suitable AccommodationsAviatrixhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13634111275860140084noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-78503974518190083922009-09-23T22:53:46.855+00:002009-09-23T22:53:46.855+00:00Have you see the article on Fatigue in Aviation We...Have you see the article on Fatigue in Aviation Week sept 21 issue? Calls for more study and technology to measure rest. <br /><br />Dave Starr is spot on. <br /><br />I had never heard of the Canadian regs before. Why we don't adopt them immediately is more political delay and obfuscation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-11017663925101067332009-09-23T17:36:32.182+00:002009-09-23T17:36:32.182+00:00Just found your blog. The FAA is fond of sleep dep...Just found your blog. The FAA is fond of sleep deprivation. I've been retired from ATC (Pilot Weather Briefer) since '95. My station worked a backwards rotation, earlier every day. So "Monday" would be 4-midnight, and "Friday" was either 5am to 1pm, or midnight-8am.<br /><br />That didn't save them any money. So I blame it on what I call the "Big Balls Effect," which is summed up in the old saying, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." Public safety be damned, we have Big Balls!horsndogluvrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02104175548913010326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-11237710799691344992009-09-22T00:58:59.744+00:002009-09-22T00:58:59.744+00:00THe striking (to me) thing about the Canadian Regu...THe striking (to me) thing about the Canadian Regulation is how specific it is. By contrast, about the only proviso on the US regulation is that "time spent in Transportation, not local in character......... is not considered part of a rest period" <br /><br />The trouble is, what is "Not local in character"? I just re-read a letter by the FAA Chief Counsel in response to an ALPA request to clarify what that means, and there is no clarification. the letter rambles on for two and half pages on the subject, speaking in additional generalities like: "reasonably brief" and "unreasonable time". The end result is that instead of removing the ambiguity of "not local in character" the letter only add additional layers of ambiguity. A scheduler could argue that a 90 minute van ride to the hotel, each way is "reasonably brief" and "not local in character" and there's nothing in the regulation or contained in the letter of interpretation that on the face of it, would counter that claim.A Squarednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-52146181529243090442009-09-21T21:50:27.611+00:002009-09-21T21:50:27.611+00:00The US military uses something very similar to wha...The US military uses something very similar to what you use Aviatrix... Only they can go party during the 8 hours since the regulations only state "the opportunity for 8 hours of uninterrupted rest." But they go a bit further and state you have have 12 hours from the time your last duty day ends to when the next one begins. It sounds like the same considerations for the definition of when that time starts and ends for you.Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14381269942646209034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-89040511188286481172009-09-21T21:38:58.223+00:002009-09-21T21:38:58.223+00:00busdriver said: I don't want to see some futur...<i> busdriver said: I don't want to see some future airline equip it's aircraft with an "on-board sleeping accomodation" and expect pilots to live at the airport on the airplane. </i><br /><br />Mesa is one step ahead of you. Mesa pilots have achieved a certain notoriety in the airline community for carrying pieces of plywood with which to bridge the aisle between seats so that they have room to sleep in the airplane on layovers where they are not provided hotels. <br /><br />Seriously.A Squarednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-13524791771825649512009-09-21T21:32:57.378+00:002009-09-21T21:32:57.378+00:00Syrad,
You should try flying under International ...Syrad,<br /><br />You should try flying under International rules. With a 3 person crew, the daily limit is 12 flight hours, with no duty day restrictions. Interestingly, those rules are used within Alaska, although I'm not clear on why that is. I can see that the operational necessity of overseas flights, and the fact that on such a flight you're mainly in cruise with not much going on could justify a different set of rules. I'm a little mystified how that applies to Alaska. Not a whole lot of difference from an fatigue standpoint between flying from Anchorage to Bethel, Alaska, and flying from Cleveland to Washington DC. As I have been flying airplanes with Flight Engineers for the last 10 years, I've been flying under those rules. I have in my logbook Part 121 flights with 7 legs, 11+ hours of flight time in an 18 hour duty day. The time between takeoff and landing was spent loading and unloading 30,000 lb of salmon. All perfectly legal under the regulations.A Squarednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-82264387175561734772009-09-21T20:58:08.700+00:002009-09-21T20:58:08.700+00:00Syrad: because of congressional regulations I only...<i> Syrad: because of congressional regulations I only slept 5 and a half hours last night. </i><br /><br />Congress doesn't make regulations. Congress makes Statutes. Regulations are made by bureaucrats within the relevant agency (in this case the FAA) which is actually under the executive beach, not the legislative. May seem like a minor distinction, but it has a great deal of significance in how the regulations are made, and how they are enforced, what rights you have in an enforcement. That's why in an FAA enforcement proceeding you have none of the rights you normally associate with the law Presumption of innocence, right to counsel, protection against self incrimination, etc.A Squarednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-86791639664003671272009-09-21T19:04:19.328+00:002009-09-21T19:04:19.328+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08985699561397840322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-72639622123153383702009-09-21T18:01:59.338+00:002009-09-21T18:01:59.338+00:00Syrad: I would be tempted to say "No sir, bec...Syrad: I would be tempted to say "No sir, because of congressional regulations I only slept 5 and a half hours last night. Welcome aboard."nec Timidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03017143602023726206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-76519262291799512632009-09-21T17:49:42.396+00:002009-09-21T17:49:42.396+00:00Wow, thank you for such a thorough reply! As I su...Wow, thank you for such a thorough reply! As I suspected, Canadian regulations are more scientific and, well, humane. NASA did studies thirty years ago on sleep requirements and issued recommendations that sound pretty close to your regulations.<br /><br />The reason things never changed in the US is simple, and the oldest one in commerce: it would cost money. The airlines have powerful lobbyists in Washington and whenever the subject of rest comes up before Congress it invariably falls apart with nothing changed. I think that the US is finally going to make some adjustments to regs simply to conform to ICAO standards.<br /><br />The cherry on top of a reduced rest overnight is greeting the passengers the next morning. If you're down to exactly eight hours, that usually means your departure in the morning has to be delayed for you to get your legal "rest". So, the passengers show up for their 7am flight and are told it'll be delayed by an hour so the crew can get their rest. Obviously this rarely goes over well. The result is that when you get to the gate, head pounding from five and a half hours of sleep after an exhausting day of weather and diversions you get to listen to half the passengers ask if you got enough beauty rest. I enjoy talking to passengers, and I like people, but those mornings require every ounce of my professionalism to smile and say "Yes, sir, thank you for asking and welcome aboard!"Syradnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-55310289369960151522009-09-21T04:32:38.931+00:002009-09-21T04:32:38.931+00:00re: Perhaps we should equip aircraft with sleeper ...re: Perhaps we should equip aircraft with sleeper cabs,<br /><br />Hey Dave - don't go giving anyone any ideas! I don't want to see some future airline equip it's aircraft with an "on-board sleeping accomodation" and expect pilots to live at the airport on the airplane. Come to think of it, many long-range airliners already have the sleeping quarters... yikes!! //nervous grin//BusDrivernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-49419140491807004002009-09-21T03:47:32.472+00:002009-09-21T03:47:32.472+00:00Welcome to the country of cost before safety. I&#...Welcome to the country of cost before safety. I've often noted comments from you regarding Canadian regs that made me wonder why the US are still so abysmally ill-considered. We are talking people's lives here.<br /><br />I once corresponded with an acquaintance who flew freight for a very large worldwide freight company. The hours he worked for them as a professional pilot would not have been legal had he chosen to shift divisions and drive a commercial truck in their ground operations. Perhaps we should equip aircraft with sleeper cabs, not as nice as a hotel room, but at least it would be available and the pilots would get 8 hours sleep.Dave Starrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05853160665847969116noreply@blogger.com