tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post1101902638582182548..comments2024-03-13T09:47:40.487+00:00Comments on Cockpit Conversation: Take-off Decisions in Large Multi-Engine AirplanesAviatrixhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13634111275860140084noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-63419189924114409482008-03-06T04:32:00.000+00:002008-03-06T04:32:00.000+00:00To attempt the approach sounds fine, to continue t...To attempt the approach sounds fine, to continue the approach until you strike a wingtip? Not so much.Buzzoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17015194503075989426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-26768991524826276532008-03-05T10:04:00.000+00:002008-03-05T10:04:00.000+00:00Hi to allIn one report on TV I heard, that the cr...Hi to all<BR/>In one report on TV I heard, that the crosswind during approach was 5 to 10 knots below the Airbus and Lufthansa limits. So I think to give the approach a try was O.K. One reason for using the 23 was that this is the only runway in Hamburg with an ILS.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06888434918835604530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-7999633682723647882008-03-05T07:11:00.000+00:002008-03-05T07:11:00.000+00:00Getting off the topic again;If you were renting an...Getting off the topic again;<BR/>If you were renting an aircraft by engine hours, and switched the engine off and went gliding for a while - do you get free time in the air?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-66664174346029850542008-03-04T21:42:00.000+00:002008-03-04T21:42:00.000+00:00Anon, We pilots, and I'm guessing you're not a pr...Anon, <BR/>We pilots, and I'm guessing you're not a professional one by your comment, sometimes joke about the 'gust ruining our landing.' But when somebody tries to land an airplane at or over the maximum crosswind component for the airplane, and it's not shaping up well in advance of touchdown but he proceeds anyway, and dings the airplane, needlessly risking the health of his passengers? Well, yeah, that's completely his fault. Hopefully you'll find it reassuring that we aren't up there saying, "Well, I hope we get lucky! Whee!"Buzzoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17015194503075989426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-86313891281214062252008-03-04T20:17:00.000+00:002008-03-04T20:17:00.000+00:00I don't buy the "gallant pilots" pitch from Luftha...I don't buy the "gallant pilots" pitch from Lufthansa.<BR/><BR/>Viewing the Youtube version of this incident, at 34 seconds into the video this guy appears to have begun losing the centreline big time. Where, I wonder, does it say in Lufthansa's SOPs that not being aligned with the centreline constitutes a stabilised approach?<BR/><BR/>Why didn't he do a GA from 50 feet or whatever he was at that moment. Yes he would have continued sinking, maybe even touched down, but surely a better outcome than he got?<BR/><BR/>Throwing rocks from the sidelines I know...<BR/><BR/>MikeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-2299870972702893842008-03-04T16:41:00.000+00:002008-03-04T16:41:00.000+00:00@xaqman:It was a poor job in that the pilot did no...@xaqman:<BR/><BR/>It was a poor job in that the pilot did not insist on using the safe runway. But if you look at the video, I do not think that the wing striking the ground was the pilot's fault. It looks as if just after touchdown a really strong gust suddenly lifts the right wing and pushes the plane off the center line of the runway. Good thing they were able to pull that thing off the ground again ...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-23917883614085003512008-03-04T03:22:00.000+00:002008-03-04T03:22:00.000+00:00@Aviatrix,Customers are clueless. It's a constant...@Aviatrix,<BR/><BR/>Customers are clueless. It's a constant in every industry.<BR/><BR/>But look on the bright side: at least this guy is unlikely to screw up his fuel loads again <I>and</I> he's got some practice under his belt for a forced landing should he have a total engine failure. Every accident and incident has a silver lining if a) no one is seriously injured and b) something can be learned from it.<BR/><BR/>(This is the point where I'm hoping you're not going to say he made the same mistake twice and earned himself a Darwin Award.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-25510547418617374122008-03-04T00:44:00.000+00:002008-03-04T00:44:00.000+00:00There is an old saying "a superior pilot uses her ...There is an old saying "a superior pilot uses her superior knowledge to avoid situations that would require the demonstration of her superior skill". It looked to me that the go-around was initiated way too late, but not having an ATPL in my pocket who am I to say.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand the video and still remind me of my first touch-and-go in a tail dragger. I'll have to point out to my conversion instructor that what he witnessed was an "absolutely professional manoeuvre" rather than pilot induced oscillation from being hopelessly behind the airplane ;-)<BR/><BR/>I'm just happy I didn't manage to scrape the wing tip.nec Timidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03017143602023726206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-56511955220433634722008-03-04T00:34:00.000+00:002008-03-04T00:34:00.000+00:00I just came out of the sim on the day before yeste...I just came out of the sim on the day before yesterday, and got to do some fun V1 cuts. The scene: 300 RVR, with a 10 knot split between V1 and Vr, with an engine failure at V1. All of which means you get to stomp some rudder just to keep the thing on the runway centerline, then rotate, adding still more rudder to full deflection as your nosewheel becomes airborne. And, yes, a little over 5000hp per side makes for a definite yawing moment. <BR/>Climb out, work all your checklists, talk to the FAs, pax, dispactch, ATC, and come back around for a hand-flown CAT3A HGS approach, (the weather always seems to come up <I>just</I> to 600 and 400RVR when the instructor wants)!<BR/>Good times!Buzzoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17015194503075989426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-39367348602428240942008-03-04T00:01:00.000+00:002008-03-04T00:01:00.000+00:00Someone sent me a link to the story where a "spoke...Someone sent me a <A HREF="http://weblog.sinteur.com/?p=22343" REL="nofollow">link</A> to the story where a "spokesman" was quoted calling it an "absolutely professional manoeuvre."<BR/><BR/>Reminds me of the time a pilot I worked with ran out of fuel. One of the customers involved praised him to me for his skill at the emergency landing.Aviatrixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13634111275860140084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-56235284627054389002008-03-03T23:52:00.000+00:002008-03-03T23:52:00.000+00:00Wow, great photo of a really poor job! That's exa...Wow, great photo of a really poor job! That's exactly what we pilots are paid to prevent/avoid, and that crew failed. They'll get no sympathy from me, nor would I expect any myself, in their shoes. ATC has very little to nothing to do with the accident, since, despite the impression some of them give, they can't reach the controls from down there.Buzzoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17015194503075989426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-11098059011348646862008-03-03T19:27:00.000+00:002008-03-03T19:27:00.000+00:00"...why ATC cleared the plane to RWY23 and only to..."...why ATC cleared the plane to RWY23 and only to RWY33 after the event. "<BR/><BR/>Probably has to do with the airport configuration and moving traffic. Such a situation exists at CYYZ (Toronto). Using parallel runways 23 moves a lot of traffic. Having to switch to the 33s slows the airport down considerably.<BR/><BR/>When conditions are changing rapidly it's often up to the pilots to "insist" on the change. I was once the first to execute a missed approach on 23L at CYYZ due to crosswinds and turbulence beyond my comfort level. At 200 AGL I was running out of crosswind aileron control during the gusts and that little voice in my head said "Do you really want to bang an engine or wing tip on the runway trying to 'make' this landing?"<BR/><BR/>I pulled up and after a five minute delay, landed uneventfully into wind on runway 33. I suspect the captain of this Lufthansa flight wishes he'd done the same. Live and learn - sometimes we pilots, being very goal-oriented, just try too hard to "make it work" when we really should abandon the approach.<BR/><BR/>Ask me how I know... (sometimes I've ignored that little voice and survived, wishing I'd paid attention...)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-18948903445577227312008-03-03T10:02:00.000+00:002008-03-03T10:02:00.000+00:00He did, here's a still image.According to some new...He did, here's a <A HREF="http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536882887&filename=phpOltUWB.jpg" REL="nofollow">still image</A>.<BR/><BR/>According to some news reports I found, the plane lost its left winglet in the event. The controversy now is why ATC cleared the plane to RWY23 and only to RWY33 after the event. RWY33 had a much smaller crosswind component during the storm.<BR/><BR/>A count of soiled pants in the cabin and cockpit would be an interesting statistic...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-7362368117607837852008-03-03T06:19:00.000+00:002008-03-03T06:19:00.000+00:00Wow ... I thought for sure he'd struck the runway ...Wow ... I thought for sure he'd struck the runway with his left wingtip, but I guess it was just water spraying up. Must have been close.<BR/><BR/>DC-9's have landing lights that come down under the wingtip. It's not unusual after a strong crosswind landing to find this lamp hanging by the wires. If the A320 had similar lights, this one would have been knocked off for sure.<BR/><BR/>Too close.Aluwingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16518739658424324739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-40332518805324780922008-03-02T18:04:00.000+00:002008-03-02T18:04:00.000+00:00Its an old saying: Take off is voluntary, landing ...Its an old saying: Take off is voluntary, landing is mandatory.<BR/><BR/>Yet in those days (we have severe storm in Europe) i wish it was the other way round: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185<BR/><BR/>Now that's a close call... I was to be flying outbound with this Aircraft...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-70902128808955466872008-03-02T09:13:00.000+00:002008-03-02T09:13:00.000+00:00Whoops, I meant to include this link about EMAS:ht...Whoops, I meant to include this link about EMAS:<BR/><BR/>http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=6279Buzzoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17015194503075989426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-70659955478275908182008-03-02T09:12:00.000+00:002008-03-02T09:12:00.000+00:00Sure, it's called an Engineered Material Arresting...Sure, it's called an Engineered Material Arresting System, or EMAS, and it's been installed in, for one, Burbank, among other airports. SWA's infamous overrun of runway 08 and subsequent trans-highway trip to a gas station prompted that installation.Buzzoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17015194503075989426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-18965769278227414922008-03-02T02:55:00.000+00:002008-03-02T02:55:00.000+00:00@brian: The next page of the report talked about h...@brian: The next page of the report talked about how many times V1 did not take into consideration reduced braking ability on wet runway conditions. I couldn't tell if the runway was wet for this incident but it is possible that a wet runway surface caused the plane to slow down slower than they thought.<BR/><BR/>Also, consider the fact that the plane is moving quite fast at V1, and that it is constantly accelerating. Even a couple seconds of time moving quickly (and accelerating) is quite a lot, and add the time it takes to brake back down to V1 speed. 400ft could easily have passed by then- the 400 extra feet that the plane slid past the runway end.<BR/><BR/>On a slightly related note: You see on those technology shows the experiments where they put down stretches of soft material at the ends of ruwnays a long time ago (there are pretty common videos of like an FAA test 727 plowing through on high-speed camera or something). Supposedly it was some kind of sand or breakable concrete or something, a pad of it maybe a foot deep. Airplanes that overrun the runway plow into this stuff, and the material absorbs a lot of the energy from the plane, hastening its deceleration. The result is a shorter overrrun and ideally a safer stop for the overrunning aircraft. Probably been around since the 90's. I wonder, has this technology been developed further or implemented anywhere?<BR/><BR/>NormanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-81573922988642214702008-03-01T05:05:00.000+00:002008-03-01T05:05:00.000+00:00Soaring Student's comment reminded me of this supp...Soaring Student's comment reminded me of this supposedly real radio exchange:<BR/><BR/>ATC: You're unreadable, say again.<BR/><BR/>Motor-glider: I've turned off the engine, is that better?<BR/><BR/>ATC: (looong pause)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-17845530734374772872008-03-01T03:58:00.000+00:002008-03-01T03:58:00.000+00:00I'm enjoying these comments, but just to jump back...I'm enjoying these comments, but just to jump back to the original topic for a sec... V speeds are an interesting "science" in themselves.<BR/><BR/>To carry more payload, twin engine airliners often increase V1 above the standard definition of that speed - when runway length permits of course. Why? It allows the pilot to trade excess speed for better rate of climb to clear an obstacle in the event of an engine failure. In more technical language, to achieve better second segment climb performance.<BR/><BR/>Techniques like this are feasible now with detailed runway data available, and with computers that handle the more complex calculations.Aluwingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16518739658424324739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-21142980874442576162008-02-29T20:12:00.000+00:002008-02-29T20:12:00.000+00:00Soaring Student: I've heard of people using small ...Soaring Student: I've heard of people using small Cessnas as powered gliders, actually shutting down the engine and going thermalling for hours. That's outside my safety limits, as I never count on an engine starting when I want it to, but I admire the coolness of logging a flight in a Cessna that is well beyond the most generous theoretical fuel endurance.<BR/><BR/>The low power Cessna idea sound like a good compromise.Aviatrixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13634111275860140084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-61269238582127736482008-02-29T19:48:00.000+00:002008-02-29T19:48:00.000+00:00I'm still toen between flying powered aircraft or ...I'm still toen between flying powered aircraft or gliders, and have a foot in both camps (most recently, powered flight). However, one of the chaps I was chatting with at the glider club, when I was lamenting still air and that I was doing a lot of gliding and nt a lot of soaring, suggested that an expensive method to having longer soaring flights was to take a Cessna, power it so it was descending at about 100-200 fpm, then go look for thermals... powering up if the search for thermals was unsuccessful.<BR/><BR/>Glider experience also changes your outlook about off-field landings.... one guy at the club had two in 2 weeks last summer. Of course, another pilot released from tow at 12:30 on a Friday, and we didn't hear from him for 7 hours, when he landed at the aerodrome after a 500km tour of eastern Ontario.<BR/><BR/>Glider pilots call an off-field landing "another opportunity to make friends with a farmer". I thin the French call it "going to visit the cows".Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11726267862761677407noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-60978610804202448942008-02-29T07:12:00.000+00:002008-02-29T07:12:00.000+00:00I think the "managed to avoid the houses" in the m...I think the "managed to avoid the houses" in the media is largely due to the popular perception that once you lose (an/your) engine you don't have control of the airplane anymore. <BR/><BR/>I know I've gotten surprised reactions when I tell people about practising forced landings and simulated engine failures, and have to explain that the plane is an overweight glider but still flies just fine without an engine. Can't go up, but it's still perfectly controllable.<BR/><BR/>Once in a while, somebody does lose control of a plane for whatever reason and does <A HREF="http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/10/19/bc-plane.html" REL="nofollow">crash into a building</A>, and that ends up all over the news for weeks, and probably reinforces the whole thing about uncontrollable planes.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13259886488993218658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-16398065438355369882008-02-29T04:12:00.000+00:002008-02-29T04:12:00.000+00:00Murphy's Law and human reaction time often cause c...Murphy's Law and human reaction time often cause calculated events to go awry.<BR/><BR/>Preplanning...I think people prefer to think you are a genius than that you are simply hyper prepared. Don't tell 'em you plotted that soccer pitch out befoehand, just "aw shuckin's" your way through as you walk away to fly another day.<BR/><BR/>One of my unit's Blackhawks had to land due to engine malfunction (unlike fixed wing aviators, chopper pilots can stop in flight also, sometimes), and they kerplunked into a meadow in the Sierran foothills. Trouble is, like most natural wemadows (i.e., not just a clearing due to logging but a former pond), it was very boggy and it required a Skycraner helo to come rescue the rescue copter.<BR/>Talking to pilots about emergency landings, and remembering accoutn after account in the popular press abot how a pilot "managed to avoid the houses but slammed to earth in a..."(fill in the blank...one I remember was a cemetary) "saving scores of lives", I am convinced (and not sarcastically) that such saves are a side effect of a pilot's mind seeking the spot most likely to afford some chance of a landing of anuy sort, versus hitting a big solid house, church, or elementary school. My hat's off to them anyway.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10000144.post-17527980577129330252008-02-29T04:00:00.000+00:002008-02-29T04:00:00.000+00:00I confess to only reading the first page of the li...I confess to only reading the first page of the linked report, but a question springs to mind. If he rejected the takeoff within a second or two of V1 being called, shouldn't there have been an adequate margin of safety such that the plane could be stopped before running out of runway? I believe the report says the plane came to rest some 400 feet past the end of the runway... seems like V1 is cutting it a little tight. How much safety margin is built into the calculations?<BR/><BR/>Thanks for another great post.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12670206060239333039noreply@blogger.com